As your reading the beginning of Confessions and about Augustine's childhood, why do you think he emphasizes his sinfulness as a child and youth? Do you think his analysis of the psychology of children is accurate?
Augustine's emphasis on his sinfulness as a child is meant to highlight the fact that we are born sinful and that "no one is clean of sin, not even the infant whose life is but one day upon earth." Did anyone else find this section challenging? In our culture we so romanticize infancy that to see it portrayed in such negative terms here by Augustine is quite shocking. We are used to thinking of babies as precious cherubs rather than as "vipers in diapers." What he writes here is pretty compelling though. Augustine is able to enter into the mind of the infant and identify with its frustrantin at its own helplessness. it indeed seems like quite a miserable state.
Here is the challenge I would like to present though: is Augustine unfairly condemning the infant's behavior by projecting the responsiblilies of adulthood unto the infant and improperly judging it by adult standards? For instance he speaks about being furstrated that his apetites were not immmediately sated and then avenging himself on his parents by craying as well as being envious of another child at the breast. These are similar to behaviors we can observe in animals though, such as when a dog whines for food or refuses to share her bone. Surely we wouldn't consider this behavior in an animal as sinful would we? What exactly makes us condemn the the same behavior in a mentally healthy, rational, adult then? Isn't the presence of reason and moral sense which makes such behavior unacceptable? Infants or children do no not yet have fully developed moral or rational capacity and so we can't really hold them responsible in the same way.
I do think we are born captives to sin though. Saint Paul in Rom 5:13-14 writes, "...for before the law was giben, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even ober those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come." It is the knowledge of the law--the fact that it has been declared to us--that makes us responsible to follow it, and it is our moral consciousness, our reason, and our ability to restrain that likewise makes us resopnsible for not acting selfishly, irrationally, or impulsively. Nevertheless Saint Pail goes on in 7:8-10, "But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commendment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found the very commandment that was intedned to bring life actually brought death." Because we are born in sin, as soon as we begin to be capable of acting responsibly, sin inevitabl seizes the opportunity afforded by our knowledge to lead us astray. This seems to me more consistent with both reason and scripture. What do you think?
Yes, you can also use your google or yahoo account.
You raise an interesting question Matt. I concur with you that Augustine was trying his best to give an example of his sin in infancy...perhaps he did miss the mark, but seeing as his aim with this text was to confess all the sins of his life in general (hence the title: Confessions) I think it makes more sense to glean the meaning behind his illustrations rather than point out the illustrations' weaknesses. Paul did makes some interesting points about sin in Romans, that have turned out to be the subject for much debate over the years, especially around the topic of when exactly we become sinners. I think in general none of us can ever actually see sin in another person, only the consequence or fruit of sin played out. When the scriptures talk about Christ wielding a double-edged sword which splits ligament from sinew, I think the point is that Christ as Judge, is the only one capable of determining where sin begins and ends. I do think sin is easier to identify in adults for all the reasons you mentioned, but I also believe that if all the adults in the world disappeared we would not be left with a kingdom-like utopia. Lord of the flies comes to mind.
Matt- Here is another question... related to your comment...is sin deeper than responsibility? Perhaps that is some of Augustine's point. I do agree with you both that Augustine illustrations may not be the best. I chuckled when I read it. Romans 5 clearly speaks about all being in Adam, and participating in Adam's sin. So there may be a degree of difference between adult sin and infant sin, but both are in Adam.
Elliott- I would agree, we cannot see the heart only God knows this. But we do see the action, and to our limited extent there is a responsibility of Christians to discern the actions of others humbly and not from the perspective of God who judges absolutely.
I think sin does indeed go much deeper than responsibility. This is why I said that I believe we are born captive to sin. We come into this world in a ruined condition. My questioning had more to do when we can rightly said to be responsible for our actions.
One of the things I truly admire about Augustine is his intellectual integrity. Augustine is like a patron saint of thinkers! What also impresses me is the depth of his self analysis. Does anyone else see parallels to Dostoyevsky and especially Notes from the Underground?
I like the comparison, that is one of my favorites!!!! I think your right, especially the introspective nature of Augustine's work. In some ways Confessions has a unexpected modern feel to it that breaks in on the scene and kinda stands alone in the ancient world. I do believe there is one other surviving work that is similar though. But we must guard against being anachronistic.
Augustine's emphasis on his sinfulness as a child is meant to highlight the fact that we are born sinful and that "no one is clean of sin, not even the infant whose life is but one day upon earth." Did anyone else find this section challenging? In our culture we so romanticize infancy that to see it portrayed in such negative terms here by Augustine is quite shocking. We are used to thinking of babies as precious cherubs rather than as "vipers in diapers." What he writes here is pretty compelling though. Augustine is able to enter into the mind of the infant and identify with its frustrantin at its own helplessness. it indeed seems like quite a miserable state.
ReplyDeleteHere is the challenge I would like to present though: is Augustine unfairly condemning the infant's behavior by projecting the responsiblilies of adulthood unto the infant and improperly judging it by adult standards? For instance he speaks about being furstrated that his apetites were not immmediately sated and then avenging himself on his parents by craying as well as being envious of another child at the breast. These are similar to behaviors we can observe in animals though, such as when a dog whines for food or refuses to share her bone. Surely we wouldn't consider this behavior in an animal as sinful would we? What exactly makes us condemn the the same behavior in a mentally healthy, rational, adult then? Isn't the presence of reason and moral sense which makes such behavior unacceptable? Infants or children do no not yet have fully developed moral or rational capacity and so we can't really hold them responsible in the same way.
I do think we are born captives to sin though. Saint Paul in Rom 5:13-14 writes, "...for before the law was giben, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even ober those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come." It is the knowledge of the law--the fact that it has been declared to us--that makes us responsible to follow it, and it is our moral consciousness, our reason, and our ability to restrain that likewise makes us resopnsible for not acting selfishly, irrationally, or impulsively. Nevertheless Saint Pail goes on in 7:8-10, "But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commendment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from the law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found the very commandment that was intedned to bring life actually brought death." Because we are born in sin, as soon as we begin to be capable of acting responsibly, sin inevitabl seizes the opportunity afforded by our knowledge to lead us astray. This seems to me more consistent with both reason and scripture. What do you think?
mstomer66 is Matt Stromberg by the way. Is there away to post on here beide Aim account?
ReplyDeleteYes, you can also use your google or yahoo account.
ReplyDeleteYou raise an interesting question Matt. I concur with you that Augustine was trying his best to give an example of his sin in infancy...perhaps he did miss the mark, but seeing as his aim with this text was to confess all the sins of his life in general (hence the title: Confessions) I think it makes more sense to glean the meaning behind his illustrations rather than point out the illustrations' weaknesses. Paul did makes some interesting points about sin in Romans, that have turned out to be the subject for much debate over the years, especially around the topic of when exactly we become sinners. I think in general none of us can ever actually see sin in another person, only the consequence or fruit of sin played out. When the scriptures talk about Christ wielding a double-edged sword which splits ligament from sinew, I think the point is that Christ as Judge, is the only one capable of determining where sin begins and ends. I do think sin is easier to identify in adults for all the reasons you mentioned, but I also believe that if all the adults in the world disappeared we would not be left with a kingdom-like utopia. Lord of the flies comes to mind.
Matt- Here is another question... related to your comment...is sin deeper than responsibility? Perhaps that is some of Augustine's point. I do agree with you both that Augustine illustrations may not be the best. I chuckled when I read it. Romans 5 clearly speaks about all being in Adam, and participating in Adam's sin. So there may be a degree of difference between adult sin and infant sin, but both are in Adam.
ReplyDeleteElliott- I would agree, we cannot see the heart only God knows this. But we do see the action, and to our limited extent there is a responsibility of Christians to discern the actions of others humbly and not from the perspective of God who judges absolutely.
I think sin does indeed go much deeper than responsibility. This is why I said that I believe we are born captive to sin. We come into this world in a ruined condition. My questioning had more to do when we can rightly said to be responsible for our actions.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things I truly admire about Augustine is his intellectual integrity. Augustine is like a patron saint of thinkers! What also impresses me is the depth of his self analysis. Does anyone else see parallels to Dostoyevsky and especially Notes from the Underground?
I like the comparison, that is one of my favorites!!!! I think your right, especially the introspective nature of Augustine's work. In some ways Confessions has a unexpected modern feel to it that breaks in on the scene and kinda stands alone in the ancient world. I do believe there is one other surviving work that is similar though. But we must guard against being anachronistic.
ReplyDelete